Senator McKENZIE (Victoria) (16:59): It does not matter whether it is Senator Polley, Senator Carr or Senator Urquhart; the Labor Party's approach to funding real higher education reform in this country is the same. Since Julia Gillard left the prime min—oh, sorry; she did not leave. She was thrown out, stabbed in the back by her own party. I apologise, Mr Acting Deputy President. Unlike the opposition, I will get my facts straight. Former Prime Minister Gillard reformed our higher education system to the point that people who previously had been locked out now, under a demand-driven system, were able to access higher education. Unfortunately, the Labor Party forgot to budget for it. Increased demand in a demand-driven system saw escalating costs. Our side of politics wants to see that enfranchisement of rural and regional students and low-socioeconomic students absolutely maintained, and that is why this minister and our reforms, at their very heart, have been about ensuring that those who have been locked out are able to be maintained within the higher education system, because we will actually ensure it is financially sustainable. Senator Polley made a really interesting remark about credit cards. I think that, if you look at the way the Labor Party approaches budgeting, it is a little like the credit card. Senator Polley or the former education ministers will go out and put the new dress on the credit card. Senator Carr might go out and have a very nice meal and some wine and put it on the credit card. But at some point, Senator Carr, that credit card statement is going to come in, and what are you going to do? Not pay the mortgage that week? Not pay the kids' school fees? What are you going to do? You have to live within your means, Senator Carr. You have to have a higher education system that is actually financially sustainable. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT ( Senator Whish-Wilson ): Senator McKenzie, please direct your comments through the chair. Senator McKENZIE: Through you, Mr Acting Deputy President. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Senator McKENZIE: I just want to make some brief comments in the sight of Labor's appalling scare campaign, which just continues. The vacuum that exists around this policy area from those opposite is astounding when the former Prime Minister took such a passion to this area and continued Labor's great tradition of reform, which includes bringing in the HECS system. I took to the streets then too, Senator Carr. I was the first cab off the rank that year when HECS was brought in. We took to the streets, but do you know what? What I thought was bad policy at 18 or 19 I now realise meant that a lot of my friends who could not afford to go to university or who did not go to grammar school could actually access higher education through the Chapman designed HECS system. It is that system and that enfranchisement that we are seeking to continue. In terms of this side's commitment to research and to scientific endeavour and how it underpins not only our economic development and future, Senator Carr, but our social and environmental future, it was the National Party that actually set up the CSIRO—I bet you did not know that, Senator Carr—and it was the Howard government that funded the NCRIS system and set it up with $542 million over seven years, Senator Carr, in our Backing Australia's Ability package. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Senator McKenzie, I just remind you to direct your comments through the chair. Senator McKENZIE: I do apologise, Mr Acting Deputy President. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Senator McKENZIE: But it was the Howard government—$542 million over seven years. If only—through you, Chair—the former government had had such a forward-looking commitment to research in this country, we would not be here, because Senator Carr and all the other ministers that had charge of this particular area would have ensured over the forward estimates that it was funded. I tell you what: $542 million in today's money would not have been a bad start. But you did not do it, just as you did not actually provide enough funding in your forward estimates for the demand-driven funding system. So here we are. We have been elected to fix the mess. The Commission of Audit backs our research commitment. I notice that in the gallery today we have the mountain cattlemen from Victoria, who will be speaking at another engagement this evening. They too back using scientific method to ensure that their impact is accurately assessed. Those of us who understand science know that the answer you get is all about the hypothesis that you propose. I would argue that maybe we have not, as a scientific community, investigated the positive impact that grazing cattle has on our environment, nor have we appropriately assessed the economic and social benefits. But we will leave that to another day. I am absolutely sick and tired of the scare campaign, Senator Carr. Here we are. We are saying that we did not know that funding the NCRIS program was linked to our higher education reforms. Senator Carr, I do not know how many times you can ask a question in this place— The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Senator McKenzie. Senator McKENZIE: through you, Chair—and be told an answer. You are given an answer every time. In fact, Senator Payne gives you very good answers when you ask questions on this issue, Senator Carr, time and time again. On 11 June 2014, questions were asked and she outlined that you did not set the money aside. We have addressed these funding cliffs in the budget. You did not like the answer, but you got it anyway. You have to listen, Senator Carr, when ministers stand up—through you, Chair—and actually seek to address your issues. For you to disrespect those ministers by not actually listening to them, I think, is the height of derelict shadow ministerialism. But here we are, thanks to our commitment to research, as I have outlined, over a long period of time. We are not going to let your scare campaign get in the way of a policy that is going to mean more low-socioeconomic students and more rural and regional students get to uni. We are prepared to back ourselves.